Designing for Plurality

(のはずがなぜかGlenのプレゼンのあとQ&Aになってしまったやつ)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjwyCt9LZvI

同時通訳者が事前に受け取ってる情報が、Glenが何を話すのかを書いてない「見せてるのと同じスライド」だったと思うのでその状況で同時通訳をさせるのは割と酷だった感

その辺のことが早めにわかっていれば事前に前のGlenの講演の動画とか文字起こしとかを伝えることで改善できたかも

YouTube文字起こし

claude.icon

この文書は、「Designing for Plurality」というパネルディスカッションの内容を記録したものです。主な要点は以下の通りです:

1. Glenn WeylとAudrey Tangが共著した「Plural」という本について紹介されました。この本は、技術と民主主義の関係について新しいビジョンを提示しています。

2. 「plurality（多元性）」という概念が説明されました。これは社会を多様で交差するグループの集合体として捉え、その多様性のエネルギーを進歩のために活用することを目指すものです。

3. 台湾の事例が取り上げられ、デジタル民主主義の成功例として紹介されました。市民参加型のプラットフォームや、合意形成のためのシステムなどが挙げられました。

4. 質疑応答では、様々な国や状況でpluralityの概念をどのように適用できるかについて議論されました。官僚制や既存のメディア、国際関係などの文脈でのpluralityの可能性が話し合われました。

5. ラテンアメリカや新興国での適用例、ビジネスでの活用可能性なども議論されました。

全体として、このパネルはpluralityという新しい概念を通じて、技術と民主主義の関係性を再考し、より協調的で包括的な社会システムの可能性を探るものでした。

質疑応答部分を各質問ごとに整理しました：

1. 同質性ではなく多様性について：

質問者は、台湾の成功が同質性によるものではないという点に同意し、多様な社会でも進歩が可能だという励ましの言葉を求めました。

回答：Audreyは、技術者自身が多様なコミュニティに属していることを認識し、その多元性を技術設計に反映させることの重要性を強調しました。

2. 現在欠けている要素や最大のボトルネック：

回答：社会の信頼度や分極化の程度によって異なると説明。信頼度が高い社会では新しい技術の実証が必要で、分極化が進んだ社会では橋渡しの証明が重要だと述べました。

回答：抗議は問題に注目を集めるのに有効だが、その後のネットワーク形成力も必要。エネルギーを建設的な方向に向けることの重要性が強調されました。

4. 官僚制との協働：

質問者は日本の官僚制社会での実現可能性を尋ねました。

回答：Audreyは、台湾での経験を基に、新しい技術を「補助技術」として提示し、中堅官僚を味方につけることの有効性を説明しました。

5. メディアの多様性への対応：

回答：プラットフォームの論理に適応するのではなく、多元性の考えを活用してブリッジを作ることの重要性が強調されました。

6. 国際関係への適用：

回答：国際的な相互運用可能なシステムや標準作りにおいて、多元性の考えが適用可能だと説明されました。

7. ラテンアメリカでの適用：

回答：チリ、アルゼンチン、コロンビアでの具体的な取り組みや可能性が紹介されました。

8. 市場と民間セクターの役割：

回答：企業内での協力を促進し、ボトムアップのイノベーションを生み出すツールとしての多元性の有用性が説明されました。

all right everybody so next we have another panel coming up um we will have designing for plurality with Audrey Tang

Glenn whale and Nisha hir uh herazo I I'm Glenn W I'm uh the founder

of the radical exchange Foundation uh the plurality Institute and the uh Microsoft research uh plural

technology collaboratory and I'm co-author with Audrey of the book that you've probably seen outside uh plural uh digital shouer plurality

the future of uh collaborative technology and democracy um which is a

joint project with Audrey but also with a community of dozens of people uh from around the world and it's the first uh

fully open- Source uh Global um democratically governed book and Audrey

do you want to introduce yourself briefly uh I'm Audrey uh this is my third panel uh today I'm really happy uh

to be here uh after served for eight years as taiwan's disal minister in a

sense the plurality uh project is a distillation of the kind of work uh we

did in Taiwan over the past decade but I think uh the world um can learn a little

bit from Taiwan and I also want to learn from the world on how to take this model this idea of collaborative technology

into more jurisdictions and maybe evolve even more than what we have achieved in Taiwan and nishio has really been uh an

in the plurality community in Japan so Nish do you want to ince yes I'm a

reader of translation CH for into Japanese the I'm translating uh sorry

I'm sorry I'm a reader of translation Cham to Japanese version of PR

book Sor thank you great okay perfect wonderful uh so uh this book um as I

said it's both by Audrey and myself but also by This Global Community uh Japan

is probably except for maybe Taiwan the country with the most contributors uh and those contributors

are Blended in this image you see above and then tiled with the individual contributors images um and it responds

to something that I think is uh much more of a western than a uh Japanese

frame and in fact I think uh they changed this a bit in the Japanese version but uh the conflict between

democracy and technology that you often hear about where people feel that uh

technology is fueling polarization Driving Miss and disinformation uh and therefore

undermining Democratic systems and at the same time many technologists feel

that uh democracy has it out for them their uh democracies are trying to

regulate they're trying to restrict they're trying to stop technology rather than supporting it um and that

authoritarian regimes are investing much more as investment goes down in Democratic countries and the reason we

believe for this is because the two dominant stories that you hear about the future of technology are basically

antithetical to democracy on the one hand you hear about uh a giant AI uh

does everything for you every one gets a universal basic income and we're all just kind of happy uh with whatever we

get um we call this idea technocracy it's very associated with AI with people

like Reed Hoffman and books like deep Utopia by Nick

brostrom on the other hand uh there's a vision very popular in the crypto world

where you're going to use uh Bitcoin other uh crypto currencies to replace

the need for governments replace the need for communities replace the need for religions and trade unions and so

forth uh and instead you're going to have sort of anarco capitalism governing

everything uh this is very associated with books like the network State sovereign individual and uh the

Republican Party in the United States just uh nominated for vice president and adherent of this uh philosophy

Mr Vance but we we believe that there's another Vision that uh underlies a lot

of the Technologies we use every day uh like the internet and personal Computing

as well as many pop cultural things like Star Trek or here in Japan uh Duron and

uh Miron Museum and uh this vision is uh

just as uh grounded but maybe less clearly articulated and that's kind of

our goal and uh we really have three principles in this idea that we call

plurality the first is that Society is not made up of isolated individuals and

a social whole but instead diverse intersecting groups that intersect to

make both personal identity and the social Fabric and we represent that with

this Universal coded character um one of the ones that is least commonly used and

therefore uh sort of not attached to any particular language these intersecting

squares and uh this is the way in which Hanah arant the great social philosopher

used the term plurality and so this is associated with her thinking second is a vision of what

the world should be like which is that social diversity holds energy that

energy often explodes as conflicts and gets dissipated as heat but instead

societies will succeed to the extent that they manage to harness the energy

implicit in Social diversity for progress and co-creation and the rainbow

that's at the center of our symbol represents this idea and we Associated it with the work of uh philosopher

Danielle Allen on the idea of a connected society and finally um we uh

use plurality to represent a strategy of what we should do which is that the role

of digital technology is not to build the giant machine that does everything for us it's not to replace community and

Trust instead it is to harness the energy of social diversity for progress

and we represent this uh to build the engines that do that you know just like industrial technology build engines to

harness the implicit energy of fossil fuels nuclear did it for the atom we're going to do that for uh social diversity

and we use these uh Kani to represent that that in traditional Mandarin our

Shou way which means both digital and plural and that's we associate with

Audrey's work and this is very much played out in Taiwan increasingly playing out in Japan as we've learned

today um Taiwan is uh the wealthiest uh

country in in terms of per capita sorry median income for any country with more

than 10 million people at purchasing power parity and it has the largest uh

digital economy 50% of its economy comes from the export of digital technology

and yet while many say that that should increase inequality in Taiwan over the last decade when they've had this

incredible digital democracy movement they've actually seen a slight decline in inequality um while democracy is

declining in the rest of the world Taiwan has actually risen in many indices to be the uh freest and fairest

democracy in the world even though it's only 35 years old um but this does not come from as

many people uh have claimed to us it being a small homogeneous Island in fact

um Taiwan uh a decade ago saw a three- weekl long occupation of their National

Parliament by students not three hours as we saw in the US it was nonviolent however and it helped launch this

movement that we were just describing but even a decade after that I went to observe their elections rated by many as

the freest and fairest in the world in January um and uh they were uh really

remarkable in how profound the uh divides are within Taiwanese Society

over identity I went to the ruling parties rally and everyone was waving

green flags rainbow Flags pictures of the island I went to the opposition

rally and everyone was waving uh pictures of the national flag and uh so

you're talking about a jurisdiction here where the government doesn't even use

the official name of the jurisdiction in English and doesn't really use the

flag so there's a very profound divide and yet rather than that divide turning

into uh conflict turning into violence turning into heat they've found a way to

channel this towards progress and growth and Improvement how have they done that

well they've opened it up to the citizens to remake the government what do I mean they have this uh government

websites atg zv people can download these and improve on them and put them

up atg o.w and shame the government into adopting them and this was the basis of

them having the world's best performance in combating covid while without any

lockdowns with one of the fastest economic growth rates similarly when

people in Taiwan are very upset and want to speak on social media they can rather

than going to a system that tries to harness that energy to sell them products they can instead harness that

energy to make laws by finding consensus across those differences and uh through

their system V Taiwan that clusters different opinions and then surfaces uh

the things that bridge those clusters they've managed to have 20 pieces of legislation addressing a range of

controversial issues issues and recently including issues around AI alignment like we were hearing about using a

related system so I hope that some of you will want to join in this process

like many folks here in Japan already have uh the book is fully open source

collaborative and uh you're very welcome to help us improve it and with that I want to give you a visual uh you know a

motive representation of what this looks like by playing you a short video can you play the video

it links directly from that if you just click on it yep it should open the just

click on that slide and you should get the video is it not working otherwise I'll give it give you the address uh

plurality Donnet if you click on enjoy you'll see the

video so while we're uh waiting on the video uh maybe uh I think uh a lot of

the work uh that we've been doing in the plurality datet project uh is not about

prescribing exactly what to do but rather presenting a t kit of potentials

so if you click enjoy you will see uh the good enough ancestor and that is not

meant to say that you should also occupy your Parliament uh it is meant to say that there are a set of tools uh to use

so you can play Maybe in full screen

no AC the world democracy is on a deine authoritarianism is on the rise glal

Freedom has eroded for the 18th consective year

Audrey Tom what is your greatest for democracy across the

globe that it has higher bandwidth yes

exactly people see democracy and yeah

maybe we wait for the buffering uh maybe you cck uh click pause uh and then you

waited for for download um but I think um the the thing here uh is that we can

see democracy as a social technology and whereas we had to wait for four years

for a vote that is very long latency and each vote is just for one out of many

candidates uh that's very low bit rate we want to in World

democracy is on a what is your greatest hope for democracy across the globe

that people see democracy as a social technology

something that people can construct together that they can improve in the

heing I don't think that works sorry yeah it buffered all the way and you switch no it's fine yeah so um yeah so

in the here and now so no but I can I'll autoc complete this um so uh yeah sure

it's now fully buffered and if you go ahead yes a social technology something

that people can construct together that

they okay no let let's just uh forget about

this no it's okay for forget about that not not a good idea okay uh well with

that we really just want to uh take questions from you all about this that's the main main goal because we want to be

a platform for you all uh making a difference uh in in and you already are

doing incredible things in that way so so how can we help yes and there's like more than 10 minutes so feel free to

start asking questions um yeah thank you so much I really like that you uh gave us the

keyword um and it's not because it's a homogeneous society and I think like the

the term homogeneity is almost a dog whistle and I love some more words of

encouragement how uh let's say we we don't have to let

us be defined by things like that and we can still feel connected and think that

this kind of progress is possible anywhere despite the like ethnic makeup

for example of a society I think that would be really important for me to

hear okay yeah um so I think uh a lot of

the work that we're doing is to highlight that even though that we're

designing Technologies as technologists uh we ourselves as technologists are not simply labeled as

technologists each of us belong to many communities maybe place-based Community

maybe purpose-based communities maybe spirituality communities and so on and

so if we imbue in the technologies that we Design This inherent plurality that

we uh are belonging to multiple different groups then it tends to have

the veilance the kind of links that can link us together across the social

distances whereas if we code things up in a vacuum uh and only thinking about

everybody's adoption or engagement of our simple platform then that is uh

homogeneous that is kind of the P to Singularity and so the idea of plurality

rather than saying that there must be one way to implement plurality in the book we show at least seven different

dimensions among which you can deepen the connection in the group communities you are in or you can expand the number

that you can broadly listen uh and everything in between and so this toolkit approach rather than a

solutionism approach I think is the key uh to overcome this tendency to Simply

say let's build a huge platform a flat platform connect the world and create a lot of negative

externalities any other

questions uh thanks uh so my question is um and your talk earlier today you were

talking about the different pieces that we need to to make this um so do you

think any pieces are still missing and if not what do you think is the biggest

bottleneck like the weakest link that deserves like the most attention right

now that's a great question um I think it differs from jurisdiction to

jurisdiction there are some jurisdictions uh like here in Japan or in Taiwan uh where the social fabric of

trust is already high and so what is really needed is just proof of Concepts

that gets people's imaginations into a different kind of technology that can

scale well beyond the existing uh scale of community on the other hand there are

jurisdictions in which polarization is already so high so that if you do not show that you can build Bridges across

those polarizations then no matter uh how scalable your work is uh they will

not use those building tool kits to bridge the social device so I think the

number one question to ask really is that how how fragmented how polarized

how damaged is the trust fabric if it's very damaged then you start from the

small layers uh a small distances of healing even just within smaller

communities of 10 people or a 100 people but in societies like in Japan where the

trust level is already high then maybe the missing link is actually the lia facee that shows oh this model can work

with much more people a much larger your jurisdiction or even

internationally so uh relating to the uh previous uh questions uh so in some

countries uh there lot of the protest uh going on but it's it also mean uh has a

meaning of the demonstration yes so there's always a mixture this is what I

feel but your discussion the more recommend people to focus on the

demonstration yes so that doesn't mean the uh those those

areas that the people should gradually move on to the more uh demonstration forus or mixture can be last it for for

a while or yeah I mean protest uh outrage uh are still useful in that it

focuses people's energy right on a issue that urgently need Clarity but you

cannot just have counterpower without the subsequent Network making power if

all you have is counterpower like many occupy movements they end up going nowhere uh because there is no network

that can form as a alternate way for people to place their energy into so you

need the initial counterpower a little bit to highlight the urgency but more

than that you need Clarity and plurality is all about uh practical ways that you

can then harness this conflict this energy into Clarity I think in Taiwan

and also maybe in Japan in many East Asian cultures when we see the protests when we see the conflict one instinct is

to dis distance us away from it because we don't want to confront uh the conflict we would simply want the fire

to to run its course uh and pray that it doesn't spread right uh but if uh

sometimes we see fire and we think oh there's energy underneath we can drill down there's oil underneath we can use

it for energy then we equip ourself with the kind of fireproof way of using this

energy for something that you can place your trust in and so trusting the

Instinct of the protesters uh requires our inner trust we need to both hold the

counterpower in our mind but also have space in our mind that says by the way

you can also use this to harness this power to build a alternative and so

keeping both sides in one's own mind is the requirement to turn the protesting

energy into demonstration yeah I think the I like the analogy of the engine you know you could the demonstration is the

engine and the protest is the fuel and uh engine doesn't work without Fuel and

fuel without engine is dangerous so that's thought thank you very

much questions thank you so much um in Japan

it is kind of like bureaucratic societ soety now I think so I you want to

realize uh kind of digital democracies but in order to realize that um we have

to tle with such traditional groups traditional bureaucratic uh groups so

but so is it possible to like um talk with to talk with each other and um

collaborate with such traditional groups is how do you do that yeah uh in Taiwan uh

when we started introducing such ideas in 2014 like with f Taiwan and so on we

uh never went to the policy maker the senior people and say uh we're replacing

you uh with crowdsourcing we're replacing you uh with the wisdom of the internet we don't say that uh we say

that we help you to see things better like this eyeglass right it's assistive technology um you put it on you see

things more clearly you can see more ideas from the society so that it's less

risk for you because if you don't have this kind of Eyeglass and you miss uh the issues that people think are

important then you ended up getting occupied or or people becoming very uh

upset uh with the policy maker so in a sense this is uh in design thinking it

is better Discovery and a better definition of the shared issue it is the first diamond in the Double Diamond

model it does not directly challenge the power uh to develop Solutions or to

deliver them that is still within the parliamentary system or the budget system or the bureaucratic system so for

many bureaucrats to adopt this kind of assistive technology for them assistive

collective intelligence for them this is lower risk and also save their time and

if you can prove again and again as we did over 100 or more collaborative

meetings none of which result in explosion and all of which result in

reducing some risk then the career public servants the bureaucrats are

actually your best friends because they're always there uh no matter how the ministers change no matter how the

president or legislature change the uh midlevel career public servants uh will

see the um use of such tools and once they have internalized the use of such

tools even in the education system then you have a generation of public servants

that are your natural allies when it comes to digital democracy so don't just go to the president or the mayor or the

uh Minister and push them uh you can walk uh with the career public service

and say this is like eyasses for you thank you so much I I'd like to

especially encourage if there's anyone who identifies as a woman in the audience who wants to answer ask a

question oh you want to ask something okay I just want to announcement uh uh

my presentation for this session was accidentally skipped by miscommunication

so uh I put it on YouTube and announce on Twitter please watch it later thank

you any other question any fin

question yeah

sure I think there's one over

sure thank you very much for the talk I'm lucky so I'm very curious about the media uh so I completely agreee with the

concept of priority but uh what we observe during the election in Tokyo met government so each candidat is connected

to the each media right so the governor itself is connected to the mass media and second uh round second one person

isar is connected to the YouTube short video and third one is that R is connected to the X and actual demo so

when we create the EOS ecosystem place of

theity sometimes it's be little bit because they are rely on the different Medias right or tools so do you have any

ideas or thoughts about the differen of the media they rely on yeah definitely

uh I mean currently there are media uh social media companies that are already

uh really um building an affinity to the ideas of the plurality book in the book

we already talk about Community notes on x.com and YouTube recently just adop Ed

Community notes and I think uh rather than asking yourself to adapt to the

logic of the social media companies or traditional media and so on we also encourage you to think about how you can

leverage uh the use of plurality or the bridg making algorithms and so on for

example to make sure that you make full use of community notes uh the full use

of Wikipedia the full use of collaborative media uh for disc kind of campaign because if you use the logic of

the existing media then you're basically condensing your message into something

that's more one-dimensional but as the social media scene itself is expanding

to higher dimensions and to also build more bridges across different dimensions

we can also take advantage of that and then join there that is partly why uh I

really believe uh in the fediverse uh I joined mtoo many years ago uh and now

with stress. net uh also start interoperating uh with the fediverse I think there's some real work to be done

to separate the publishing layer with the curation layer and a lot of the work

that we do uh for the plurality work can happen at a curation layer independent

of the underlying publishing layer all right we'll actually take two

more questions uh since this is the last panel okay all right you and you

hi um do you think the idea of plurality

can be applied to a international relation as well internal relation like

within a school within International oh International International Yeah country to Country yeah in in a sense yes uh I

mean there are many um like interoperable systems that really need

to work together across different uh Nations uh so a classical example uh is

the xroad uh system that was built uh with uh Iceland and Estonia and Finland

uh together uh technical interoperability and recently we have seen many people uh building on the

decentralized identifiers verifiable credentials and so on so that uh by

definition it takes on a International interoperability uh status uh and so in

all these uh different terms uh the idea of plurality all applies because it is

about making sure that as more people adopt those interoperable standards more

people can meaningfully steer the direction of the future governance of such standards and so in standard making

bodies or even in like NATO with interoperating uh cyber security or some

other digital means we see more and more people more willing uh to adopt this kind of listening a skill or

deliberative um Technologies because they also reach more stakeholders and

they want more Rich feedback from those uh stakeholders so I think a lot of the

uh work we do on the policy chapter in the book uh talks specifically about how

to identify the digital public infrastructures that are more amable to

a plurality based investment and governance structure and many of them

work internationally as well just one quick you know illustration I'd give is you you know a default way of thinking

about international relations Is free trade reduce the subsidies reduce the tariffs and alternative is Imagine each

country is doing qf internally uh new form of international economic cooperation could be to set up

a joint qf fund for projects that bridge between the two countries you see what I

mean so that's like a different way to conceptualize international relations um I saw a question over there yeah

uh well uh first of all thank you guys like uh you changed my mind literally today my mind was blown up every time

that I went into a workshop or either a conference like for me it has been very

like overwhelming with all the information but at the same time like very clarified like you open my my my

mind a lot and I want to ask I come from a Latin American country in in well

Mexico and I want to know the you like if you can think in a use case for poity

in an emerging country like Mexico because as you not might know uh like a

transparency and and maybe can be an issue like for for government but I

think it's like very useful so can you give me like your opinion about maybe

how can we use ity in an American country Latin American country uh well

uh we actually got an incredibly enthusiastic reception in Latin America

uh and we're working with uh leaders in Chile Argentina and Colombia right now

on a variety of topics uh Sovereign AI to help defend the values of those

countries because a lot of the AI models are very uh secular and people care a

lot about religion in those countries and about the values that people there

have so we're thinking a lot about steering AI uh in conjunction with the Holy SE to be amenable to uh the

Catholic tradition for example uh another one is um the idea of Argentina

as a home for open source because open source projects are very mistreated they

don't get treated like NGS they don't get treated like nonprofit uh so Argentina is very excited in changing that and defending

cryptography and making it a home for uh open source and crypto

cryptography um another example in Chile huge failures of constitution process

there uh because of lack of trying to make consensus so the interest in using some of these tools for those so those

are some examples and one last one I'll give is Taiwan if you spend eight years contributing to digital Commons

Wikipedia YouTube uh GitHub you get permanent residents in the country with

the highest median income for uh uh at PPP so you think it's good for Latin

Americans come to the United States much better to go to Taiwan so you can check out Taiwan gold

cart one more one last one

Encore can you hear me can everyone hear me yeah one of the theories of change for societal change says that change

comes through four dimensions uh law culture Tech and markets I kind of get

the first three in the context of plurality can you talk a little bit more about where markets come in and the

private sector in this architecture I guess I'll take that I'm The Economist

so um look I I think markets are number one place where it comes in because uh

there is no uh more appropriate scale of cooperation in many ways than within

companies companies uh have a huge problem because they have they're broken

up into many divisions that need to cooperate but are constantly in conflict with each other because of

organizational incentives so if you can use these tools to get them working together for the common interests of the

company that's how you avoid disruption that's how you get bottomup Innovation uh that's how you keep the company alive

and fresh uh so we have a very Vibrant Community of people using plurality for

business

purposes okay that's all F Li live long and prosper yeah live long and

prosper awesome thank you all so much let's give one more round of applause for our panelists today thank you all